Season 2 Episode 15 | Jacob Nordby | Creative Life

Read the transcript here...

Hey there creatives, I'm really excited to get back to podcasting. I took a long hiatus

over the summer, which was much, much needed. Sometimes it is important to just pull away and stop

some of the things that you're doing to give yourself some slow down time. And we're going to talk

about that in this episode a little bit, that importance of taking breaks and allowing yourself

that time to slow down because it really impacts your creativity. And I'm really excited to have

my next guest on the show and to share our conversation with you. And today you're going to listen to

conversation I had with Jacob Nordby. He is a writer, speaker, and creativity researcher and guide.

And he is the author of several books, one of which is called The Creative Cure. And we talk a

little bit about that on the show. I just, I loved our conversation and the way he thinks about

creative practices and really tapping into our own creative source to help us to regulate

ourselves and to connect with our own guidance system, really, our own kind of wisdom and

and support that we all have within us. It's like, it's all about resilience really. So without

further ado, here is a psych conversation with Jacob Nordby.

Now here's your host, Raina Lombardi.

Thanks so much for listening to the Creative Psychotherapist podcast. I'm your host, Raina Lombardi,

and I'm really excited. This is going to be the first episode back after our summer break.

And I'm really excited to bring on my next guest and welcome him to the show. His name is Jacob

Nordby, and he is the author of the Divine Arsonist. Blessed are the weird and the creative cure.

He is a passionate researcher and teacher of creativity, healing, and the human potential.

He's co-founder of the Institute for Creative Living, Institute for Creative Living Foundation, and a writing room community with Anne Lamont and others. He loves to invite others into lives of joy and healthy creative expression on all levels.And you can learn more about him at his website, www.jacobjacobnodby.com.

And I'll have more information on where you can learn more about him in the show notes, but

we're going to find out a little more right now. So welcome Jacob, thanks for being here.

Thank you so much, Raina. I was chuckling when you were spelling out my name. Thank you for that.

And my last name doesn't seem to be easy to spell, so.

I think it's like the consonants, the two consonants, the D and the B together, can kind of throw people off.

So I want to make sure that people know where to go and everybody spells their name so uniquely.

I've met Jacob's, which the traditional Jacob is how you spell it, but I've seen it spell other ways too.

Well, I'm awfully glad to be here, Raina. Thank you for inviting me to be on your show.

I'm excited to talk to you. And I think probably the first question I really want to ask is

what led you into becoming a researcher of creativity and having creativity be at the center of

your work that you do?

That is such a great question.And probably like many people in your audience seeking to heal the pain in my life really led me towards digging into some really interesting rabbit holes of information.

And you know, I grew up in a very restrictive kind of Christian fundamentalist cult environment.

And then when I left that, you know, there was a big hole left in me.

And it wasn't until my mid 30s and late 30s that I began to realize that I kept bumping my head on what

I now call the invisible furniture. So these old beliefs, these old survival strategies and coping mechanisms.

And even though my life looked fine on the outside, I kept bumping my head and my shins

and discovering how limited I really was. And that wasn't something I was okay with. So it just led me

into a lot of search. I love that term, the invisible furniture, right? It's there. It's built.

It's like a strong framework. And it's so strong that you're blind to it. I mean, you don't even

notice that it's there. But you're like, why is this keep happening? Yeah, it's kind of like getting

up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and thinking we know where everything is.

And then we keep bumping our head or shins on something. And later when we turn the light on, we go,

okay, well, we're going to fix that. But I think a lot of us tend to just keep bumping our heads and shins,

you know? Yeah, that's true. And so where did you start when you're like, okay, I'm going to

explore this for myself? Where did you start with your creative process? Was it always in writing?

Because clearly you're an author and that's part of what you do. But were you exploring any other

avenues of creativity as well? You know, like a lot of people as a child, I didn't know any better. So I

drew and I sang and I played the violin and I did all these things that were, you know, creative.

As it began to become an adult, of course, I began to place economic value or I'm never good enough

at that. And so I began to just put those things away. And as I entered my mid-30s, Reina, I discovered that

despite the fact that I had all of these external markers of success, this great big new office and

a big house and all the things I was not feeling at peace. I was not feeling satisfied. And it wasn't just

that I wasn't making art. It was parts of me.

 I weren't being lived. They weren't being fulfilled. Andit wasn't until I had a pretty dramatic shake-up in 2008-09 that really turned my life upside down and caused me to well lose everything, all those things and start fresh.

 It didn't feel fresh. It felt scary. But I moved to Austin, Texas and took a few part-time jobs just to pay the bills and I was in this big warehouse. And I had all the time between fulfilling these box orders. And I began reading the

artist's way. And yeah. And I started doing the exercises in there, Reina. And I would just sit there

at this dusty desk with a notebook with tears running down my face. And I began to open up this

deep well that I didn't even hadn't really acknowledged before. And it was that that really began

to open me up. And then I remembered my childhood dream of being a writer and I started writing.

And that's where I probably, I love your questions because that's where I probably first began to

notice the connection between healing and creativity. And I think a lot of people tend to put those

in two different silos. I know you don't. You're an art therapist, but a lot of people tend to see

them as different, right? Yeah. I also see it as an existential experience that the creative

process is, it's like an essential core of being human and our purpose here on the planet.

As we're all here to create something to express something that it's just built in our DNA. And if we look

back archaeologists, all the evidence there, right? Like just thousands and thousands of

generations of humans finding ways to express themselves with whatever tools they had available.

There's just something at our core that if we're not living a creative life and we're not

connecting with that part that needs to be expressed, that we do feel like snuffed out, like our light

is being snuffed out. Yeah. I love that. And I love the that you brought up archaeology because it

takes us back to long before the industrial era, before we had big distribution systems and began

trying to monetize everything. People were making art and singing together and making music and doing

things artfully. That they never were worried about am I going to become famous while I make a living

at this. It was just part of their natural human experience. So I love that you've made that connection.

Yeah. That their life has certainly changed with the way we live today and modern times. But I think

people that that intentionally live creative lives recognize that and they prioritize that space and

time to allow for that creative way of living, whether it's you know singing, singing together,

dancing, painting, and there's something really special about creating and community too.

Yes. I couldn't agree more and I just think that well I grew up in this church and I mentioned that

before and despite the fact that it was very restrictive, it was it was community rena and we sang

together and that's where we played instruments and that's where we did things and so I feel like

there's something really intrinsically important about what you just said and I think that it's hard for

us sometimes in our current culture to make space for it. You know. Yeah, but because art is

it's intentionally slowing yourself down. If you're creating in some capacity, you have to slow down.

Yes. Right. As a writer, right. I don't know your process for writing, but I've read a lot about

other people's process for writing and I know that it's like people find the time where they can have

that space and time unobstructed, no interruptions where they can just get into the flow and experience

whatever it is of that material coming in and flowing through them. And that's it's a slowing down

but we don't live in a culture that prioritizes going slow. No, we're told 25, 8 hustle and grind.

And you know, one thing, that's one thing I want to also address though, rena, because I have, as I

mentioned before, we got started today. I have a lot of therapists in my world. My mother is a

therapist and I have many therapists and I love love the conversations we have and it seems and

I'd love to hear your perspective on this. It seems that just before then during and especially

after COVID, there's become such an awareness of the need for mental health work and I love that.

And it just seems like a lot of therapists right now feel as if there's not a there's not a time

between taking care of people to hardly go to the bathroom much less slow down and do something

artful. I think that really speaks to the systemic issues that we have within not just mental health

but health care in general. You know, if you look at the requirements of doctors that are

panelled with insurance, the numbers that they have to meet per day. And if a therapist is working in a

you know, an agency setting, there are certain quotas or billables or productivity standards

that they're expected to make and in order to make them right. We know people

have life events, they cancel or they forget or they have to reschedule for whatever reason.

So they'll book people for eight hours a day of therapy and therapy itself definitely is a

slowed down process. You are in the presence of another person. You're all of your attention. You're

really attuning to that other human. What is going on for them? You're observing everything that

they're doing with their body, what they're saying. You're you know, you're responding to them in a

way where really is communicating that you're listening and understanding deeply. 

That's a tremendous amount of energy output. And for people to do that for eight hours straight a day,

right? Then they go, then you're like, oh my gosh, like I want somebody to cancel because I can't

prove the eight hours, you know, that it speaks to this larger issue of that hustle culture. But also

kind of how we we structure our healthcare in today's society. If you're working in private

practice, maybe you have a little more flexibility and you don't have to do that. So yeah, yeah, it's

funny. You say that my mother is in her 70s and she didn't become a therapist until she was after

60 years old. So she was really a big move for her. And she's extraordinary. 

I know I'm so inspired by her. If I were feel tired or worn out, I'm like, yeah, that's also I need my mom is some

but she does that. She'll do eight sessions in a day, Rayna. And I do I do individual work with people

I'm not a therapist, but even that work that I do, which is, you know, similar in that it's holding

space and being very present. You know, when I'm done with a 60 or 90 minute session, I've told my mother

another therapist, you know, I just don't know how you take a breath, clear, metabolize what just

happen and go back in and do it again immediately. It's just remarkable. Yeah, I think, you know, I've

been working as a therapist for close to 20 years and I will say that early on in my career, I would

often feel so depleted and zonked by the end of the day. I would come home and I'm not a nap person,

but I would need to take a nap. I would need extra sleep. I, um, it felt really depleting. And then

after being in the field longer, I think you find little ways to adapt to cope, to build in time and space.

Fortunately, in, in my work as an art therapist, sometimes I get to make a little bit of art

with my client and that, that is nice too. It's not so much me focused. I'm creating, but I'm still

paying attention to the client. But it's still, I don't know, it allows, it allows a little more, um,

I guess space. I'm not a loss for words to describe what it does, but it helps.

It helps. Yeah. Um, yeah, I love that. I'm, um,

one of the things that I seek to do is rather than give people some sort of prescription of,

you need to make an hour a day for whatever it is, you know, to reconnect with your inner creative self.

And by the way, I want to make that distinction. I think that a lot of times we get wound up in the idea

of a creative practice of some kind that means we're pursuing some particular art form, for example,

I'm in a right for an hour a day. I'll work with a lot of writers. And, um, one thing I like to help

people understand is that creativity is not some substance or force outside of yourself. It is

your intrinsic spark. It's the your spark of life. And it's meant to flow through all of your life.

And so a creative practice, as I see it, the the first and most important one is reconnecting with that

inner self and listening to ourselves and asking, what do I need? And so that sending that signal to our

deep psyche that I matter, that this time matters that I deserve a little bit of space, but also developing

that as a micro practice. So it doesn't have to be an hour five or 10 minutes a day of intentionally

sitting down. I'd use the do it first thing in the morning, Julia Cameron would would would prove,

but I talked to Julia and I do classes with her pretty frequently and it's funny. 

People will always ask, does it have to be in the morning? Of course, her answer is yes. And then I'll privately say,

and it's more important that you do it, even if it's 10 o'clock. I mean, I did my morning pages

last night in bed at 930. So I mean, but even five minutes, Raina. And I think that comes to a lot of

people as a great relief to go, oh, I felt like such a failure because I'd never have an hour unbroken

and single mothers, I was a single dad for years. I mean, there's not time to breathe between things

and it's legitimate. It's not an excuse. And some like, hey, what if you can give yourself just five

minutes? And then maybe it turns into 10, but don't even worry about an hour. And I watch people

light up and go, I can do that. I can make that promise to myself. The hour is just I can't promise

that. And when I try to do it, I get a streak of two days and then something happens and then I fail

and I fall off the horse and I'm like, great, let's do five minutes or even two on us. Let's start somewhere.

Yeah, I feel like I, I'll be honest, I wish that I was consistent like that and I did it every day.

I'm not. There will be streaks where every morning, I do some kind of art journaling or

expressive writing or something. And then there will be months where it doesn't happen

just because, well, there's other things going on and that becomes not like what my needs are

different during that time. And it's about listening to what your needs are.

You know, earlier this year, I had a good start to the year. Then it was like, oh, the world just got

really intense. Move my office along with moving my office. There was like all of these other

external things that happened. And you know what, getting up in the morning to work out and to do

the expressive practice. That was not what was a priority, but sleep was.

And getting that extra sleep was. So, you know, if you lose track of it, like it's okay, you can start

again when you feel called to. Yes, yes, I couldn't agree more. I think a lot of people, I've heard,

I heard a trainer one time use the phrase, die of shame. And because they didn't do it perfectly,

they didn't do it every day or enough, you know, then they just go, well, I guess I'm just not one of

those people or I'm lazy or I'm a slob or whatever it is. And I like to just get that out of the way

altogether. It's like you're you and your parts are welcome here, however you show up today.

I work with groups and that's one thing is like, I didn't feel like coming today because I didn't,

I haven't done it for a week and I didn't all these things. And I'm like, I'm just glad you showed up

today. Let's start there. Yeah, right. That's what matters. That present moment. Yeah.

Not what you did yesterday. What can we do right now? You're here right now. Yeah.

I would love to talk a little bit about a very simple journaling practice if this feels like a good

place for. Yeah, let's do it. We you said a few minutes ago, you said, you know, tuning in with what I

need, what I'm feeling, that sort of thing. And I lit up a bit because that's at the core of this creative

journaling practice I have. And this was born from my own experience of really working journaling

for years and years, Rayna, but then also realizing how many people felt somewhat estranged from the

experience of it or they would feel like my journaling, even when I use a, you know, practice such as

morning pages from the artist's way, it ends up sounding like boring wife, boring, whiny, barfy,

drivel. And it's just day after day of nothing but the same thing. 

And I don't, it just doesn't feel good to keep doing that. And I'm like, you know, obviously there's some benefit in boring, whiny, barfy, drivel. But so over time I developed this practice for myself of asking three questions

because I grew up with a lot of childhood trauma. I found that hypervigilance and anxiety were

constant parts of my life. I found myself often feeling guilty when I would make a little time for myself.

And so what I developed was a practice that has three questions. And the first one is,

how do I feel right now? And that one by itself, again, in your therapist, many of us got the message

early and internalized the message that what I feel doesn't matter. And our society is full of

messages like "F your feelings" and things like that, you know, right? And so we're taught from an

early age what you feel doesn't matter. You can't trust your feelings, feelings always lie, all of those

things. And so by asking the question, how do I feel right now? And sometimes that can be

existential or emotional. Sometimes it's just very, I'm feeling tired this morning. I'm feeling

anxious today. Whatever it might be, or I'm feeling this morning is a beautiful day. 

We had a bunch of rain and it's clear and bright outside. And I was sitting on the patio of a coffee shop journaling.

I'm like, I'm feeling wonderful today. Sometimes it ends up being that way, you know? But so how do I

feel right now? That by itself sends that message to the inner creative self, somebody's listening,

somebody's paying attention, you know? And then the second question is, what do I need right now?

Similar to the first question, a lot of us are taught early on that our needs don't matter.

You know, I was the oldest of six kids and everything just was a hurry in our life. And by necessity, we

were making food and washing dishes together and doing all the things. But it got to be an early

message that I internalized, you know, my needs really are less important than everyone else is around me.

And so asking that question of ourselves, what do I need right now? And sometimes it's very

prosaic. I need a nap. I need to pee. I need to prank, you know? And what would be the third one?

Well, I wanted to pause there, not just keep rattling on in a monologue, but yeah, and that needs part.

Like I just love, I love sending that signal that says, my needs matter. I'm going to pay attention

to them. And I've come to see the inner creative self as a very intelligent, curious toddler in a certain

way. It's open. It's taking in information. It doesn't know all the rules for things. But like a toddler,

I have three children and when they were toddlers, if I ignored them, Raina,

daddy, I need to drink. Okay, just a minute, daddy needed to drink just a minute. About the fourth or

fifth time if I didn't pay attention, something was going to break. They were going to get my attention.

So when I would turn and look at my beloved child and say, oh, honey, what do you need? I need a

drink. I've said it 17 times. Okay, let's get a drink. The minute I paid attention to them,

they settled right down. They were no longer breaking things. And so I found that if we treat our

inner creative selves in the same way as an intelligent, curious and very vocal toddler at a certain point,

that helps us then frame it to go. I don't have to walk around with these feelings of angst and

urgency all the time. I can actually spend a little time and find out what's needed. 

And often, it's something very simple. Love that. It's a great metaphor. And yeah, I think when we're not creating,

it's mad. It's mad. Well, yeah, it's having a tantrum. At least for me. I'll speak for me.

Raise my hand too. And the other thing that I think this points to Raina is what is one of my great

motivations, which is to help people no longer put creativity outside of life. It's not like, well,

that's my creative self. And then there's the rest of my life. No, your life is a creation. In fact,

that's one of the processes here. Right? I see you nodding. I love inviting people into the

understanding that creativity is an energy that's meant to flow through every part of my life, much

like the sap and a tree or the blood in our veins. And that means that any part that is not filled with

our creative selves will weather up. And if we pay attention, our creative selves want to flow back

into that area of life and make it artful, whether it's my relationships or the work I do for pay

or my more classically creative type things or the walk I need to take by the river.

Any of these can be an artful part and an artful expression of our lives, you know.

Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I was nodding the whole time. I truly believe that it is, it is,

it's just a natural part of living that as natural as breathing. And I think it helps us so much

when we are able to embrace it. And we're able to nurture it. And we're able to celebrate it and

have fun with it and allow it to be a mess. Allow it to be ugly. Allow it to allow it to not

meet certain standards that would, you know, generate income.

That thing, that the creative process, I think, can get really sticky if we're using our creativity

for our income that can create some challenges. And we have to make time to just create,

just to experiment, have fun to play for it, to create for creativity, sake for our own

childlike self to have that exploration. And what you said about walking down by the river and

having an artful experience that way, I think it isn't just the act itself. There's the research,

there's the, there's the sensing. There's collecting all of this inspirational information,

which were then synthesizing. And then that becomes the creative output. But gathering,

collecting all of that information, that's part of the creative process too. But people don't talk

about that much. We almost never talk about it. In fact, what we judge ourselves by is the finished

creations of others that took, you know, months or years or whatever it took to make these things

happen. We didn't see the mess. We didn't see the meandering and the boredom and the despair and

all the things that go into the work hand, you know. And yeah, one thing I love is the polyvagal chart.

Obviously, you're familiar with that. And I have it tattooed inside of my forehead virtually.

So that I remember this, right? Because when you look at the ventral vagal, what I call the green

zone of the creative zone, that's kind of the holy grail for most spiritual traditions and

therapy and most self-help or meditation. Like if you get into the green zone physiologically,

everything is going to be more supportive immune system increases,

sense of connection to others and resourcefulness. All the good things happen in that zone.

But most of us are living up way up on this scale somewhere higher and higher in fight or flight.

And many of us tip over into, you know, freeze at some point. And so one thing I like to help people

realize is that meditation is wonderful and I use it. Journaling is wonderful and I use it. But honestly,

understanding that the green zone, that ventral vagal state, can be reached if we're willing to

make a little time for it with a few minutes gentle walk. It doesn't have to be an athletic walk.

A bath, a cup of tea, sitting and talking with a trusted friend or partner. These things, if we

understand the intention behind it and the reason it feels good, sometimes that helps people quit

having anxiety about not meditating enough or not journaling enough or whatever. It's like,

no, I know how to get into that state and there are many, many different ways of getting there.

I love that. Yeah, so getting into the flow when everything is just synergistic.

It's easy, right? You're like, oh, wow, all the creativity slowing out of me. Oh, everything's working out.

Doesn't feel like a fight.

About seven or eight years ago before I really dove into the understanding for myself and then

was so fascinated by trauma research that I really began to dig into that more. I visited a holistic

Asian medical practitioner and she asked me if I knew what active resting was. I was dealing with

a lot of chronic fatigue and some depression and all these things. I went to her saying, I need help.

My energy was really low and she asked if I knew what active resting was. I laughed as if I've heard

the term, but I don't think I know what it means. She said, well, that's obvious.

She helped me understand the simple mindset shift. She said, because I told her, I said honestly,

I feel like I'm lazier now than I've ever been. I feel like I have to take all this time because I

just don't have any energy. She said, well, what if when you crawl in bed and pull the blackout shades

and put your laptop on your lap and start watching Netflix, what if you make the shifts

in mentally that says I am actively resting? That means she said, I want you to imagine you're

plugging your iPhone into the wall charger and watching it go from 1% red into the green.

She said, if you're anxious about what you're doing, you're actually not letting yourself recharge.

You are telling yourself a story that's keeping you elevated in anxiety, which means you're actually

not getting the rest you genuinely need. It was so funny, right now. That began to help me and

it's taken me years and I still have to work on myself with that. But that visual, sometimes even

what we might call self-indulgent activities, if we understand that using the journaling questions,

I said, what do I need? It's like, I need deep rest. Maybe I need a day. I'm an introvert. 

Maybe I need a day without a lot of social contact and just in my pajamas, in my house. It was hard for me

to give myself permission for that for a lot of years. I think that is a hard thing for many,

many adults to give themselves permission to do. It's drilled into us that we need to be responsible.

We need to be productive. All of those things and we don't often take that. I do think though,

we're seeing a pivot in awareness about that and people are changing the way they're living

and working, which is really exciting to see because they're prioritizing what you're talking about,

that active rest and they're prioritizing the way that they live and work, right? 

Creating that balance that it's not all one or the other. I'm so glad you brought attention to that. That was one

of the things that as COVID said in and we had this massive disruption. Of course, we were dealing

with so much distress, but also it felt like a chance for us to pay attention to our needs in a

different way than has been possible or maybe even legitimate in the last 40 or 50 or maybe more

years. Yeah, absolutely. I hope that it continues. Yeah. Yeah, I think that the industrial era,

by the way, I've said that a couple of times. I think that humankind has been developing these

things all of the down through our story, our history. It's not as if we haven't gained a lot of

benefits from the developments of the industrial age. I feel like what we're in right now is a time

where we're asked to genuinely take the power back from the machine world that we've created

because it was meant to make our lives easier, not more frantic and anxious. 

The fact is, we just keep creating, creating, creating out of a fear of scarcity. I feel like we're in a time

where if we are willing to, we can step into a different promise of what is possible, which

means genuine freedom and genuine, which also, I think one of the reasons we don't take advantage

of that, Raina, is because we are so afraid of boredom. If I don't have work, productive work to

fill my life, what will I do with that time? And Cal Newport, who wrote deep work and other

researchers talk about the crucial importance of boredom. In fact, I talk about it in the creative

curbsome, but understanding that boredom is a necessary state and is a brainwaves data associated

with it. And we honestly can't tap our deeper creative gifts or feelings unless we're willing to

allow some follow-time, some time that's not filled with productive activity. Yeah, we need that

those breaks. I know I've read a lot of like, you know, about different inventors, right, that

that was like part of their strategy, that they would have intentional breaks to go do nothing.

Totally, and understanding that we are, especially, I'm in a period right now where I've been

developing this big retreat within LeBotte and Julia Cameron, all these. And so that's

requiring a lot and we're developing a whole writing community around it. So it feels like every

day is filled with exciting and really intense work. And so I was sitting there journaling this morning

and I watched myself reign a like a squirrel. I'm journaling a few words and then I pick up my phone

to check and there's a message coming in and there's an email and I'm journaling for a few. And

finally I wrote my journal, I am a mess today. I can't seem to focus. I can relate. I can totally

relate. I am starting to teach a new class or new to me class tonight and I've never taught it before.

And so, yes, in this, Art Therapy Assessments. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And so last night I was like,

okay, it's like, what's, oh, it's 230. Oh, it's three. I gotta get some sleep. I gotta get some sleep today.

Yeah. 38 am. Is that what you meant? Yes. Like 238. Like I was waking myself up because my brain is

like rehearsed like actively, like mentally rehearsing and going through all of the things that I want

to make sure that I hit and talk about and I'm like, no, it's not time for that. We can go over that tomorrow.

Get some sleep. But no, I've been up since like five. Oh my god, I hope you get a little rest.

I wish I will after we're done talking. I'm going to do some meditation myself and an energy

meditation. Yeah. But it happens where I was like, okay, I'm really frazzled this morning. I felt

really frazzled and I had to like tell myself, you know, be really intentional about how I was talking

to myself. Like, it's going to be okay. Nothing to frazzle about. Oh, well, it will be and I also

understand, you know, the need to be responsible and show up well prepared and deliver them on the

promise of a class. Those are important too. And so it's a lot. Yeah. 

Yeah. So whenever you're, I think you're developing something new, it can feel that way where you're like, okay, I had everything organized in my mind. And now it all just, whoosh, everything got jumbled up. Oh my god, I can relate

to the fact I remember sitting down in front of a in front of my laptop a few years ago before a big

event we were putting on and I just was feeling completely terrified. Even though it, you know, I'd had

a great flow of ideas ahead of that. And then I'm sitting down five minutes before it's time for me

to go on stage and just trying to make sure I'd remembered everything that was important. And I felt my

my inner guidance go, hey, you've prepared so much. It's all in there. In fact, the

PowerPoint slides and the notes you're making, these are all to really take care of that.

Ego part of your mind, which is by the way, I don't use the ego as a bad word. This is taking care

of that part of your mind that wants to show up and wants to be seen as prepared. And that's totally

fine, but you can trust that it's all back. It's all in there. It will all come out and it did, you know.

Yeah, that's awesome. So I want to I want to make sure we double back because I think we only got the

two questions. And there were three. One was, how do I feel right now? The other one was, what do I

need right now? And what would be the third general prompt? You are so good because I realized that

we missed that question too. Thanks for coming back. So the third one, and I really, the order of these

has become important to me because how do I feel? What do I need? A lot of times we try to jump right

into visualizing a desired state of mind or a desired, you know, creation or something without

paying attention to the first two things. A lot of times we're trying to kind of, it's almost like

people who want to get to self acceptance, but don't do the inner work of self discovery or the

the needed healing and the things they're trying to get to. I am a strong confident human or whatever.

And they wonder why they always feel like a fraud with that. And so this third question, I really

invite people to put it last because I find that moving into this third question is best when I

have prepared the ground by settling myself a bit. The third question is, what would I love? And often

when I'm in the middle of emotional turmoil or stress, sometimes I've reframed that question

rena as how would I love to feel right now? Sometimes putting a goal or a, you know, I'm trying

to visualize this thing, this accomplishment that I'm going toward. Sometimes that can feel way too far

out in the future, especially when someone's going through, you know, turmoil or destabilization of

some kind. So coming right into the present, how would I love to feel right now? And a lot of times

for me, that ends up being getting ready to go into this meeting or I'm getting ready to go on

rena's podcast. I would love to feel confident. I would love to feel open and friendly. 

Or I'd love to feel less anxious. Whatever it is, sometimes that next step on the path helps me not try to focus on

something way down the road and just go, oh, I would love to feel this way right now. Or if I'm going

into a tough conversation with, you know, one of my business partners or a, you know, supplier or

something, it helps if I get myself centered just that little bit. But then for longer range things,

well, what I love, and this is where the creative self loves to dream. And if I give it a few paragraphs

to dream, and sometimes I'll start that out with a prompt like, I'm so happy and grateful now that

and put myself in a future situation and let myself create the story. It's remarkable sometimes

looking at, if I look back at a journal entry from two or three years ago and look at something I'd

written down, I would love to, I'm so happy and grateful now that, and to look back and without any

real like dedicated daily focus on that, just realized that came to be. That's amazing.

 Back to that conversation with Dr. James Dota yesterday and he wrote into the magic shop and he has a new book

coming out next make about manifestation. And he's a neurosurgeon, he's a scientist, he's like this

really deep researcher in the brain and how it all works. And we were talking about manifestation,

you know, and he's, he's an outspoken atheist, he's not into all the, you know, more spiritually things

that I'm very familiar and comfortable with, but I love that because he's taking it from a very

strong standpoint like that. But that's one of the things that he really teaches in his work and has

observed is that we have so much power to create the lives that we would love to live. And often we

we step, we stay back from even imagining it because it feels so, we feel so afraid or inadequate.

I hate, well, it's like, well, I don't, if I imagine it, there's like a fear if I imagine it and it

doesn't happen, then I'm like grieving this thing that didn't come to be or like I, some people have

the perspective like, I know that's not even possible. So why am I going to even allow myself to

entertain that idea, which that that hurts my heart because if you're not going to allow yourself to dream

bigger to just allow yourself to imagine all the things that are possible.

Yeah. We say so stuck in our, our own little space. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Completely no, I got excited when I interrupt you. Oh, you know, that points to me. It's interesting,

Raina, when I was reading Body Keeps the Score six or seven years ago and then the deepest well,

I began to notice that I myself, even though I've been, you know, I'm left-handed, I'm right-brained,

you know, I tend to have a lot more access to that kind of experience. I would discover that when

I would sit down and try to imagine an outcome or an experience that I would really love,

I noticed how hard it was for me. And then I began pulling the thread on that and I began to realize

that much like our needs and our feelings, we get taught in early age, sometimes explicitly,

that's just your imagination, stop day dreaming. And we actually get trained to train the most powerful

and the first step in the creative formula, as I've identified it, imagination is always the first step.

But we never lose our imagination. What happens is we get trained to use it to paint scenes of what we

don't want, failure, pain, rejection, disappointment, all of that. And so we are, most people, if you,

I'm sure as a therapist, if you ask somebody to imagine something they don't want, my god,

they can create a Steven Spielberg-Murvey in a second. Oh my gosh, it's so true. It's so true. And

I think that that happens to our young people, right, in school, like, you know, teachers don't even

allow people to doodle as they're like listening and paying attention. Like, what's so wrong with

doodling while people are paying attention? But we learn that that skill is not valued.

 What is valued in society is rope memorization, conformity. And following those expectations of those

in leadership without question. And that's problematic on many different levels. Aside from squashing

our creative juices. Yes. Yes. I have a friend Dr. Chris Nebauer, he's a neuropsychologist, and we

were talking, as I was writing the creative cure, we were talking, because he's all into left brain,

right brain, all these things, you know, fastening character. But I got excited. I said, Chris, it sounds

like what you're telling me is in our society, we've placed all the rewards and the focus on left

brain activities, which is reflecting what you just said, right? And it's almost as if we've told a

body builder, never work out the right side muscles on your body, only the left and only, and you need

to work them hard and you need to make them big and strong. And then after 30 years, we wonder why

that same person has no functional, like they can't hardly walk down the road. They're out of balance.

And he started laughing. He said, I would have never thought of that metaphor, but that's actually

exactly what's happening. And he said, it's not that anyone is really all left brain or right brain.

He said, actually, we just been so trained, even those of us who are more easily

right brain experiences, we are also trained, like you just said, to create linear

goal oriented behaviors. And so it takes some time, it can feel awkward, and sometimes even painful

to let ourselves get a little looser and learn that we're, I don't even want to make people feel

like they have to get or create it. I would love to be inside of them, you know?

It's frustrating that the creative process isn't as valued because what we know is that it's essential

in all workforces, if we allow people and encourage people's creative process.

I mean, we start to solve solutions for problems that have existed for a really long time and

become more efficient. And there's just so many positives that come with creativity.

In your book, what do you share with readers about the link between the creative factors of

the creative process for their own healing and well-being?

You say that one more time. I was listening to the question and I wanted to make sure I'm really

clear on what you're asking there. Yeah, so your book is called the creative cure.

And so I'm curious what in your book you highlight are the curative factors from the creative process

for our healing and wellness and, you know, ultimate benefit. Yeah.

It's interesting. A lot of this started for me, at least in terms of this book, Reino, when I saw

the World Economic Forum update back and I think it was 2015 or so and they do this every five years

to where they do a massive study and they come back with all of this data that says these are

the kinds of skills you need to survive and thrive in a career. All right, so this is money,

this is big data, but it was interesting to see that the previous one that they had published

creativity was at the bottom of the top 10 list and then in this new one that they had set up for

2020 and beyond, creativity had moved to number three on the list, but what was interesting is that

some other what they call softer skills such as empathy were now on the list for the very first time.

So that set a light bulb for me and I did a study with 10,000 people and of those who responded,

I asked what's your greatest creative challenge? And then I had a multiple choice and then there was

also a box they could say other and explain 72.3% of those who responded said I doubt my talents and

abilities, I don't think I'm good enough. Oh, that's awful. Right. And I had a hard time believing it

and then as I engaged with that group who responded and we started doing some work together,

I found that it really reflected a deep inner belief that I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough.

So to me that began to help me realize it's not a matter of, it's not even a matter of the creative

activity they don't think that's good enough or that they could become skillful enough in.

There's a deeper hidden belief that I myself am not good enough. And so that was one and then of

course some others that came up were I think I have things that are worth sharing, but I don't think

other people will value them. There was a lot that came back to self-worth and so that began

and helped me continue the process of asking that question of okay this is a big clue

because the business world, the economic world is understanding that we need creativity.

People are beginning to talk about it a lot, but when it comes right down to doing it, a lot of people

or being it is how I'd prefer it, not just doing it because to me creativity is well one of the

simple definitions of it, Raina is the process by which something rare, original and valuable is formed.

And one thing I love to help people understand is that as we

heal the connection to our creative inner selves, we begin to realize that I myself, you yourself,

everyone, we are our own most exciting and challenging and magnificent creative projects. If we

focus first on the inner self, everything that begins to come from that is an expression of that

rare or original valuable being that each of us is. 

And so I begin to then approach my writing or the creativity I take in business or whatever it is, you know, I begin to take a different approach with it in that it's no longer a test of whether I'm good enough or not. I'm doing that work

internally. And so it gives me more of a chance to take risks and to not be good at something.

And so as I think this is a long way around of answering your question, but you know the subtitle

of the book is how finding and freeing your inner artists can heal your life. And I watch so many

people whenever they use the word creativity, their face kind of puckers up. They're like, well,

that's for those creative people. And it hurts my heart because I'm like, it's genuinely here for

everyone. There is no creative class out there. And everyone else just has to be these peasants

working around in mundane experiences like creativity is genuinely meant to come out of us.

And if we heal that connection, we begin to bring more joy into our lives. And if I

bring joy and artfulness to what's within my own arms reach, how am I? I remember feeling so

overwhelmed by the world, Rayna, and realizing that I can't overcome the forces of stupidity and

evil and cruelty and all the things that are so stressing for me out there. I can't overcome those

forces. What I can do something about is how are my children doing in our home? How am I doing? 

He inside of myself? How is my partner doing? How are the friends in my life who might get more and

more isolated? How are they doing? How can I touch and bring artfulness and love into what's within

my own arms reach? And I found that as I did that, it began to more and more reduce my sense of

anxiety and overwhelm in the world. That's not denying the forces that are distressing out there,

but it's saying I can do something about this right here. And that brought and continues to bring

more and more sanity into my life. And that's what I share with others. Let's bring more joy and

sanity into our lives, more connection. When one writer and researcher wrote, we don't heal in

isolation. We heal in community. And so I invite people into creative community and into joyful

community. And like, take the word creativity out if you need. Let's have fun together. 

Let's actually have fun together. I love that. Creating can be such a joyful experience and fun. If we allow it to be

yeah, that's beautiful. How can I make this thing right in front of me artful? So if I show up to

have a conversation with you and I'm concerned about how to way up here, how am I going to sound

and I'm mechanical about it. Let's let's serve the agenda of making sure everyone knows about this book.

To me, that's no longer artful. If I show up and go, I'm interested in rena and the work that you do

out there. And yes, I want to talk about these things and get excited about them.

 But if this right here, if I'm thinking about the next five things I have to do today, I'm going to lose the artfulness

of this experience. And this feels artful because I'm connecting with you as an actual person

and listening to you. I totally agree. It's creativity teaches us so much about

presence and mindfulness and living in the present moment, focusing on this one thing that we're

doing right now. And that is that's a gift. That's a relief, you know. It's a relief from like when

things feel overwhelming and jumbled and anxious to be able to just be in the present moment fully

engrossed in whatever it is that activity is that you're engaging in, whether it is a conversation

like this or painting or your writing or movement, whatever it may be. Making dinner. Making dinner.

Yes, I love cooking. That's one of my places where I like to get creative and express myself and

definitely get in the flow. I can I can lose like 10 hours in the kitchen easily. Oh my gosh,

my feet hurt. Well, yeah, you've been standing making stuff for 10 hours.

Well, and I love to say, rena, that I love what you just said when you lose yourself, you know,

you're cooking. This is artful. I don't really care about the words. I do care about the experience.

And so what I love what I love for people to allow themselves to do is

reframe it to go anything in which I feel more alive, whether it's a conversation or my sister's

a CFO working on a spreadsheet. She loves numbers. It actually makes her feel alive.

Right. She goes into a flow, stay with it. It doesn't really matter what it is. It's so long as it's

not harmful to others. Whatever it is that makes you feel truly alive, that is an expression of

your creative self. That is art. That is actual art, you know. I love that. That's such a great

quote. Anything in which I feel more alive is an expression of my creativity,

creative self. That's beautiful. You might have read a small passage from this. I don't know if

you've ever seen this book belonging by Toko Paternor. I haven't. But yes, please do.

Beautiful. She's a Jungian dream worker. She does a lot of really beautiful work. And this book,

if you looked at it, it is full of underlines and dog years and my tears and everything else. 

But I share this often in my classes and workshops. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but she says,

I believe we have more than enough creativity to solve the problems of our times. But we have to make

a perilous trek into the wilderness within to reclaim it. She says, "Few make the trek into this

creative wild because the path requires great vulnerability. To come into our true originality,

we must surrender the layers of numbness we used to protect our hearts."

Oh, I have the goose bumps. That's beautiful. Beautiful and so true.

I can think of that disconnection, how people disconnect and go numb instead of going in.

Well, this is one reason I just love when I got the invitation to show up here and then

knowing what you're doing with working with so many people who are working with others out there.

I just really want to honor everyone who is in the trenches of inviting people into

surrendering even if it's for an hour every two weeks that they come into a therapist office and

they for a moment are able to be vulnerable to put down those layers of numbness, even if it's just

for a few minutes. You're doing the work, you're helping provide the medicine that this world needs.

And I am so firmly convicted that what she says is true, that a lot of the work that's needed right

now is really not mechanical. We don't need better technology. We don't need faster cars. We really

need to come deeply into our true originality. I agree, beautifully stead and thank you for

sharing that passage. Now I wrote the book down. I'm going to have to put that on my list.

Really great. If people wanted to learn more about your work, the writing retreat that you're

creating and your book, the creative cure, where can people find more information about you Jacob?

Well, like a lot of people who get a lot of projects going, maybe you can relate, right? I have

websites here and there and everywhere. So you mentioned at the beginning of the show Jacob

Norby.com. That's a great place to go. And I have this journaling practice that I mentioned earlier.

It's a program. It's downloadable ebook and also an audio version. I also have a little instruction

video like three minutes long. And I have a creative visualization that are included and it's all free.

And they can find that at creativeselfjournal.com. That's a great, that's a great plan. It's

again, it's free. I love when I created this years ago, I shared it with some therapist friends and

just said, I don't know if this is any good. You know, it's a 12 page ebook. I don't know if it's

any good. And a couple of them came back and then more and more have come back and said, oh my god,

I'm sharing this with my clients because they all I've been wanting them to journal for years.

And many of them just won't do it. They said, for whatever reason this practice is really

helping them do it. So that makes me happy. The other one is creativecurebook.com is where you can

go and sample. There's an audio sample. And that's where I talk about the three enemies of

creativity, which is traumatic experiences and conformity. Wow, my own three are escaping me now.

Yeah, trauma and the fear of rejection and then socialization essentially. But we talk about

there on that page and there's downloadable samples and things. A writing room retreat is coming

up this year in Santa Fe. We're also streaming it worldwide. So people can show up in Santa

Fe if they can make the trip, but a lot of people can't. So we have well over a thousand people

already registered to join us from worldwide. And that can be found at awritingroom.com,

which is our retreat site. But then that will soon morph into over into our community.

 So there's an online community with an app coming out in the next month to support people who are writers or

who want to be. I'm so fortunate to be working with Anne Lamod and Julia Cameron and Sark and Alex

L who just wrote the book How We Heel, some of these amazing teachers. So it feels really good to be

doing this. That's awesome. I think such a great resource for people. So many great resources for

people, the journaling prompts, the retreat, creating a community where people can connect and create

in community, which you've highlighted that it's really important for the healing process to

heal in community. We don't heal in isolation. Isolation is, ooh, the antithesis, right? He keeps us

stuck in our own in our own stuff. So yeah, when I get isolated, I get more and more crazy.

Right. Yeah. You know, I mean, no, it's yeah, inside of my bubble, if I don't get out of that,

and Rayna, I just want to just say I still appreciate the attention and the highlighting of my work.

But I would love to just put this out there. It's not a decision you have to make now, but I would

love to invite you to come and share some things with some of our community at some point. I love

Art Therapy and I love that you're doing it. It's amazing. So we can talk about that at some other time.

Well, thank you. That's so generous and kind. And yeah, I would love to. We'll have to, we'll stay in

communication and you let me know. I really see what you're doing. It's like you're doing it.

Well, thank you so much for doing what you're doing and being willing to come on my show. I know

my show is really it's small in comparison to some of the other podcasts out there. So I'm grateful

that you wanted to come and talk to me and my audience about your work. Well, I look forward to

sharing this with with my groups as well. I just feel like we can't have enough of the work you're

doing. And honestly, I feel like doing it, you said, you know, a smaller show. I actually prefer

working with people who are doing work out on the streets. I think some of the big famous shows

are amazing and I would never, you know, disrespect them. And I just I just love that you're doing

the work out there in the trenches in the fields. I think it's just beautiful. Thank you for that.

Thank you. And I I'm grateful for your kind words and I appreciate you.

And the work that you're doing, I feel like it takes a village of people to reach everyone

that needs to be reached. And, you know, particularly I really believe that creativity is is

curative. Like you for so many reasons. And, you know, not everybody, not everybody needs to go

to therapy, but they still need to have that creative experience and to be invited to be creative

and let go of that inner critic voice and play and explore. And I think, you know, the more creativity

out there, the better the world is going to be for all of us.

I know that first question, how do I feel right now is often a check in art exercise that I do in

groups just to kind of get us warmed up and see where people are in their bodies and and where they're

at. What's their energy level at that day? And it just helps people to get into a different thinking

and feeling place. And I also loved the question of how would I love to feel right now?

How would I love to feel right now? I think it's a question we don't often ask ourselves,

but if we did, if we asked that of ourselves every day, I think that there's a great potential for

helping ourselves to embody that more desired state of being that we're all looking for and that

we're helping our clients to find. And yeah, anyway, I hope you enjoyed this conversation and I

look forward to sharing more conversations with you for the rest of the year until December.

And if you liked what you heard, please do subscribe. And if you really, really have the time,

we would love if you rated or gave us feedback on the show wherever you listen so that other people

can find us and they can benefit from the conversations that we're sharing as well. All right, take care,

everyone. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Creative Psychotherapist. If you like what you

heard, please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. For show notes,

downloads and additional resources head over to the website at www.doub.com/doub.com